Billy Corgan On New Podcast ‘The Magnificent Others,’ Storytelling

For rocker Billy Corgan, the curious mind and embrace of captivating storytelling that made the Smashing Pumpkins one of the best selling rock acts of the 1990s translates well to the idea of longform interviews via his new podcast The Magnificent Others.

For Corgan, the idea is to go beyond the often stale idea of a one-on-one interview, engaging in actual conversations which create compelling character studies.

In the series, Corgan drills down on the history of legendary rockers Kiss with bassist and vocalist Gene Simmons while Sharon Osbourne illuminates the fascinating differences between the music business and the music industry.

Corgan reminisces over a shared Chicagoland upbringing with Rage Against the Machine’s Tom Morello while taking a deep dive into the process behind the innumerable hits of Diane Warren, one of the most successful songwriters in the history of recorded music.

“I think I’ve always flirted with the idea that I could be involved in a series of conversations that would be interesting to people – but I never thought of it in the context of a podcast form,” said Corgan during a recent video call. “I even thought about maybe almost like something you would do at the teahouse or something you know? Just invite people in for a chat and not worry about a clock or a click,” he explained of his idea for the series, referencing Madame ZuZu’s, a teahouse and live performance space he owns and operates in the northern suburbs of Chicago. “So, it seems to have been in the ether for a while.”

I spoke with Billy Corgan about the importance of storytelling, strong character development, the potential impact of AI upon the music industry, the future of live performance and much more. A transcript of our conversation, lightly edited for length and clarity, follows below.

Jim Ryan: I prep for these interviews and I read everything I can find, right? And a lot of times – pick an artist – I just repeatedly see and hear the same few soundbytes or talking points. You see writers hitting upon the same couple “nuggets” from a Wikipedia page. How hard did you find it to push these conversations further and turn over new ground?

Billy Corgan: It’s not easy. It requires a little bit of cursory understanding of who you’re talking to – let’s call it your own impressions through time that are sort of stored up in your body.

I tell the story with Diane Warren about really the first time that I recognized how great of a songwriter she was was watching Aerosmith performing “I Don’t Want to Miss a Thing” at the Grammys in 1999. So, I have that memory of like, “Jeez, who wrote this song?” And that sets me off on my own journey as a songwriter: I want to know more about this person. It could’ve been anybody. I didn’t know it was Diane Warren. So, there’s that.

There’s also, of course, as you know, the often completely inaccurate feel of Wikipedia and beyond. And then there’s cultural opinion. Which is, oftentimes, in my opinion, either based on incorrect information or false myth. Or somebody picks up one line in a story and that becomes a meme or something that gets hung on a person’s tree.

And one thing I think is really worth pointing out is these are really conversations. Yes, it’s an interview. I’ve asked somebody to sit down and I want to talk to them. But, ultimately, it’s a conversation. And what I said today on a post is that if you watch the Diane interview, that’s the way Diane and I would talk if we were just sitting in a green room. It’s not the formality of, “You’re a star and I’m gonna sit here and everything that drops out of your mouth is a nugget.” It’s that French word rapport. It’s the back and forth where you kind of push each other as musicians or artists and you go, “Oh, I never thought of that!” And I see where some people don’t like that. I think they want Oprah or something, you know?

And Oprah is a very, very skilled interviewer. I went to the Oprah show when I was 17 years old and sat in the audience when she was just a local Chicago legend at that point. So, I watched that whole thing growing up. Phil Donahue. I mean, I was in Chicago. Chicago was the home of talk shows. We watched talk shows in Chicago like we were addicted because we were inside all of the time because of the bad weather.

The point I’m trying to make is that I like that kind of Donahueish banter. We can have a little bit of fun and it’s OK to step on each other’s toes a little bit verbally. Because what we’re after is something different than, “I’m gonna treat you like you’re a visiting dignitary.” And I’m not saying that’s the arrogance of “I’m a big star.” I’m saying that’s the way I want to be talked to.

So, I hope that translates.

Ryan: I was looking at the list of episodes yet to come and noticed the name Sam Moore – who has passed since that conversation was recorded. Did something like that kind of underscore for you the importance of capturing these stories?

Corgan: I’m often surprised as a fan of anybody – so let’s talk Sam Moore – arguably the greatest soul singer ever. And, if he isn’t the greatest, he’s certainly up in the top five, right? Well, there’s not a lot of information out there on Mr. Moore. Not the kind you would think of for a man of his accomplishment and his life story. Of course there are those books and things. Where other people, there’s so much information you almost don’t know where to begin.

So, I find it curious that there’s this uneven balance at times towards celebrating people I would consider iconic. And that’s one thing I like about the show is that it allows me to talk to people who are maybe overlooked in a particular way. Obviously, Sam Moore is not overlooked. But in a particular way.

Or, in the case of a Diane Warren, just come at it from a different angle. Because this is one of the greatest songwriters in American history – but there’s not a ton of information about her process or how she writes so many songs at such a high level for such a long time.

There’s this moment in the podcast where I read a list of some of the people who’ve covered her songs. And as I’m reading it, she’s like, “Well, that’s old.” And it’s a crazy list! If I had one fourth of that list, I would be all peacocking around. And here’s a person who’s completely motivated and shows no signs of slowing down.

I’m ranting a bit. But I like the idea that there’s a different type of conversation that can be had.

Ryan: That idea of storytelling is really a critical component of The Magnificent Others series. In a way, there’s even character development. We’ve touched on that idea previously but only in terms of wrestling. Whether it’s a pro wrestler, a songwriter, a poet, a screenwriter, an author or anyone else, who are some favorite storytellers?

Corgan: My father was a character. My mother in her own way was a character. I think it’s a celebration of characters. I think I read recently that there’s like 2,000 characters or something in Charles Dickens’ books? Just think about writing 2,000 separate characters!

You know, Dickens, when he used to write, I think he wrote five hours a day. And I think after he would do that, he would walk through London for three hours. And he did it almost every day. That’s fascinating.

He must have loved just watching people be themselves, you know?

Ryan: And that’s indicative of a curious mind. Which is something you take into these conversations. Obviously, you have to have a curious mind to sit down and discuss in this kind of depth with someone their career for an hour and a half. Is that something that came naturally to you or was there someone helping foster that within you early on?

Corgan: I think it’s very natural. I’m naturally curious. It’s not a character trait everybody finds attractive – because in order to be curious, you have to kind of stick your neck out here and there and ask things. And sometimes you ask an inappropriate question, you know? (Laughs)

As far as an inspiration? I guess Walt Disney would be the closest thing. To me, he’s the supreme storyteller in American culture. Because he had a way of taking scary stuff and complex stuff and reducing it to something that felt fun and mystical at times. Because if you go back and read the original Grimms’ Fairy Tales or something, they’re pretty overwhelming. Disney had that touch about sort of distilling it to the pure essence of something.

This is my idealized hope but if you watched a 90 minute interview of me with anybody, you’d walk away with a greater understanding of something that is superior to just what was exchanged. There’s an essence or something there. That’s the character thing that I think I’m after.

There’s something beautiful about when you can kind of snapshot a character. Growing up, 60 Minutes interviews would do that at times. Andy Rooney would do character studies on 60 Minutes. Art Buchwald. And, if you remember, in Chicago we had Mike Royko. And also in Chicago Studs Terkel. Studs Terkel used to just write books about normal people. Like the guy at the dock or something. And he also would do portraits of great giants in jazz and stuff.

The common touch of it all is interesting to me.

Ryan: Studs also was a radio guy here in Chicago on WFMT. And radio came up in a few episodes. Diane brought it up. You told the story of hearing Ozzy on the radio while playing basketball. For me, radio was a fascinating thing. Because at a time before the internet, or being old enough to travel, the ease of availability of AM radio especially was kind of like this window into other places and other cultures. The sun went down and, suddenly, in Chicago, I could hear AM 820 out of Dallas, Texas – a place I’d never even been. How did it function for you at an early age?

Corgan: In terms of music, it was just whatever was on pop radio. WLS comes to mind. And if you look at those charts from like 1972, it was very diverse. So, that was an influence I think.

And then at night – and I don’t remember even how it started, maybe just poking around – I would listen to Larry King. Larry King had a radio show – I think it was on the Mutual Broadcasting System if I remember correctly – and he would be on from like maybe midnight to 4 AM or something. Let’s call it the more languid form of the famous Larry King CNN television show. So, he’d have people on and they’d just shoot the breeze, just talk.

I don’t know what the 2025 version of that is. I guess you could argue it’s podcasting. There are some people I listen to where it’s just kind of the gang hanging out. I’m not even interested all of the time in what they’re saying or what their opinions are. It’s more the vibe of hanging out with the gang or something.

Ryan: The state of the music business comes up multiple times. Sharon Osbourne, for instance, breaks down the difference between the music business and the music industry. You entered the industry at the height of that major label system and have watched where it’s gone since. You’ve seen behind the curtain more than most. Does that force you to pay attention to the business side in a little different way today than you would’ve 30 years ago?

Corgan: Yes. But I would say I’m not too invested in it at the moment. Maybe other people are and I can understand why. But I think AI is going to blow everything up.

I think when we look back at the world of entertainment in 10 years, it will be so incredibly different. And the delineating factor there will be AI’s influence on everything: show writing, editing, temp music, pop music, virtual stars. I think we are in the last glimmers of a different age. So, it feels a little like the Titanic: the ship is sailing, it looks really good, people are selling out stadiums left and right. And it works for me – we’re in a good place with the band – but I feel like there’s a big iceberg coming called AI and nobody knows what’s going to happen. Nobody.

The first thing I would point to is, if you’re 15 years old and you’re in a basement, like I once was, and your choice is spending countless hours learning how to play an instrument or write a song – or you could just press a button and it will get you 80% down that road. And now you can use those thousands of hours to figure out how to get the other 20%? It’s over. I mean, it is over.

Because kids? They don’t give a f–k. And they shouldn’t. They should chase whatever they think is exciting. So, I don’t have any kind of moral compunction about it. I have a moral compunction about how it’s going to be abused by the business. But teenagers jumping in and using technology to author a new type of art? I have no argument against that. However, I can also be the guy standing there on the bow saying something’s coming. And I don’t want to be Nostradamus. I’d rather you and I talk 10 years from now and go, “You really missed the boat on that…” Great!

I don’t know where it goes. I think I’ll be fine – selfishly. I think people will still recognize authentic voices. And I would include that journalism will probably be a part of that. Those who have an authentic voice will survive. Whether it’s Substack or Patreon or whatever.

But AI is about to wipe just about everything out.

Ryan: We look to the future and we talk about AI. You spoke to Gene Simmons about moving forward with Kiss avatars. I look around at all of the concerts I go to and don’t think people even realize the amount of artificial moments happening on stage right in front of their eyes thanks to the prevalence of backing tracks. When you look into your crystal ball, where do you see the future of live in particular heading?

Corgan: Well, to be fair, we use some backing tracks. Because it allows us to do stuff on stage we couldn’t otherwise do. Even occasionally we’ll cheat in some background vocals. I have no problem with that. Because there are artists who are considered the biggest artists in the world where their entire show is on tape. So, I’m not going to blink at cheating us down the road a little bit just to sound good. Because 98% of what you hear coming out of the speakers from us is authentic.

But, to your point… I don’t know if you’ve seen this YouTuber Wings of Pegasus. He breaks down who’s cheating. He breaks down who is actually out singing for real and who’s not. And it’s pretty shocking. He uses technology to extract vocals and he can identify who’s being autotuned, who’s singing to tracks. It’s pretty fascinating. Because he presents pretty irrefutable proof from a technological point of view. The way he presents it, it’s like, if you’re in studios and you know that technology, you’re like, “Oh. He’s not joking around. This is for real.”

I don’t want to name names. Because I’ll have their fans after me. So, I’ll leave that to you. But what I’m trying to say is there are certain pop stars that their shows are completely lip synced. And I go to people in my family like, “Have you heard this? Have you seen this?” They don’t care! And these are my family members! I’m not going to some random person on the internet and trying to convince them that I’m right or what they should listen to. This is my own blood! And they don’t care. They’re just like, “I don’t care. I like it.” What that says to me is that that argument’s over.

So, when you get into – let’s call it a new era where over 50% of the performances will not be organically generated and over 50% of the people selling anything – tickets and/or records or merchandise – are doing so buoyed out by artificial means. And I’m not talking about autotuning your vocals. I’m talking about wholesale, constructed, avatar-level – they might as well be anime characters.

I mean, we’ve kind of stood by and watched this whole thing happen and no one has really raised any big fuss that I can see. So, what that tells me is, it’s gonna happen! And when it happens, you’re gonna get a bunch of Substack articles about woulda, coulda, shoulda. “Here were the telltale signs…” Bob Lefsetz is gonna run to his rusty typewriter and talk about how much better it was when they did Rumours because, you know, Stevie Nicks really sang. Or whatever.

But it’ll be too f–ing late.

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Ryan: Well, you have a curious mind. And you’ve taken these deep dives with people I can tell you really respect via The Magnificent Others. What do you learn during a process like that?

Corgan: So much. So much. It’s the greatest indulgence in the world.

Let’s talk about Diane. Because I really love that interview. I’m sitting with one of the best songwriters ever in terms of success, right? I mean, we’re talking Irving Berlin level. Cole Porter or Gershwin level. Holy sh-t, right? So, to sit with a complete master of that game. I had all of these questions – but Diane’s not a blabber like me. But when you sit with one of the best in the world at what they do for 60 minutes, you’re sitting at the foot of the Buddha, you know?

I’ll give you the simplest answer in the world: It blows my mind that this incredible, talented woman – who’s very funny and very charming, and even more kind of rambunctious off camera – is not somebody who sits there and analyzes. Her process is not intellectually driven – it’s all heart. So, if you saw anything in that interview – I’m spending 60 minutes trying to understand the heart of this engine. Because that’s a heart of gold in there. Whatever she’s feeling, whatever drives her pathologically, whatever she envisions in terms of a romantic love – whether it’s Disney or The Lion King or whatever – millions and millions of people, and some of the top singers of all time, can’t wait to get behind a microphone and sing her song.

So, just to be in the orbit of that. And just to try and understand. It’s like, invariably I’m going to be sitting at a piano somewhere and I’m going to hear Diane in my head going, “You know, stop thinking and just feel.”

So, that’s the selfish part for me.